ACSSA Forum (transcript)

Annabelle:

Good morning, everyone. Before I start I'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which we stand. I'd also like to make a number of acknowledgements. It is a great pleasure for Beata and I to be here today and as Antonia said, a lot of hard work has gone in, not by one person only. A number of people have been influential in getting us here, but I think as you're here today too, it is that organisational umbrella who actually make things possible for us individuals to get here. So I'd like to acknowledge ACSSA for recognising the issues for engaging dialogue with IWSS and Beata and I. It is the work of people from non-English speaking background and their challenges and their opportunities are only possible with collaborative strategies. So thank you, ACSSA and the structure for ACSSA means everyone in it.

Debra and Antonia thank you so much for their support, I know that we've been verbally acknowledging your assistance, but thank you once again. I guess I'd like to acknowledge Immigrant Women's Support Service for allowing us to contribute to this work and to facilitate some of the processes. The combined experience of Beata and I is that working with people from culturally and linguistically diverse backgrounds for about 20 years or more. We both come from a diverse background ourselves, so our experience has been formed by personal, professional, our relationship with others. We hope THAT you take away some of those shared examples of our professional contacts.

Just starting, we're talking about Immigrant Women's Support Service. Immigrant Women's Support Service is the only service in Queensland working with women from non-English speaking background who have experienced domestic and/or sexual violence. The service operates four days a week, it's staffed by a number of women from non-English speaking background and the management committee of this organisation is also, of course, a number of women from first the community and non-English speaking background. The service has been around for about 24 years. It's got a long history, established history and it has seen both the political, internal and external challenges of what happens in Australia, both at a state, at local, national level and international, of course.

The sexual assault program, which Beata coordinates, is a newer program in terms of programs in the organisation, it's about 13 years old and it provides community education, individual counselling for women who have experienced sexual violence at any point in their lives and for mothers of children who have been sexually abused. A lot of community education have been - with their limited hours, I guess, they do a wonderful job, but they've only got 45 hours of their service delivery. So when you think about it, it's not much and as Beata said yesterday, it services about 100 women in a year.

Beata:

Just for [unclear], sorry. I'm just standing up because the microphone - otherwise I would be yelling at everyone. But I just wanted to tell people about our problem a little bit more in terms of that. On average we see probably for counselling around 100 women a year. This is purely for issues of sexual violence that women have experienced and this is for counselling. For community education we on average provide information to less women - 600 women. We go to English classes where women learn English. We go to established groups of women, we go to a number of different - wherever the women gathered, then we go and we inform them about what is there to be in Australian context and especially, what is the law around the sexual assault in Australian?

So around on average 600 women receive community education, 100 women receive on average counselling from us. About 200 or 300 professionals receive training from us. We also do provide the group work for these women who've experienced violence, be that domestic and sexual violence.

Annabelle:

The sexual assault program, nor does the domestic violence program - doesn't have a waiting list. I guess I identified that because what we see in the communities is the increasing waiting list. It is about how I choose to manage those waiting lists and it, of course, always benefits the women who access the service. There's not many services that women can access without, of course, your framework when it comes to counselling in Queensland. It's a requirement on the part of the management of the organisation, how to manage that.

I'd like to start about where we look at issues of - when we look at the diversity in our community, what is that about? The world has got smaller and smaller in that we have so much access to media, to the Internet, so there's more public awareness about issues globally. Travelling has become easier to get, you travel from one part to the other in a much quicker way than perhaps 10, 15, 20 years ago. The aspirations of individuals have changed in terms of young people do want to work overseas and people our age too, they want to work overseas, they want to study overseas, that's part of their dreams in terms of their life journey.

International business dealings are happening all the time. I would say that the commitment to human rights and international acceptance of responsibilities has changed slightly as well with the awareness that we keep gaining. Some of the implications, national implications of what I've just said have also meant the immigration patterns: international workers' travelling, expansion of tourism, business migration, skill migration, family reunion. When we talk about family reunion we are talking about people who are coming - there's permanent residents who are living in Australia who bring family from all over the world.

International adoption schemes have continued, they've been around for a long time, they've continued. Some of the resulting considerations from that is that children are born in Australia when you have second generation migrants. You have inter-cultural relationships and romantic liaisons, marriages, children born in mixed marriages, sharing of diverse spiritual practices. People returning to live in Australia with diverse world views: relationships, both personal and professional, with people around the world are forming.

Working relationships with people in diverse cultural backgrounds are happening as we speak; appreciation to different cultures. I guess, what I'd like to bring to you is that when we talk about actual social framework, although it is a framework that you will engage and you hear in perhaps in terms of your relationships with your clients, or the people who access your service. When we talk about actual social framework, it is a framework that we utilise in every moment of our lives. It should not be seen, in our perspective, as an added on, or as a special skill, it's something that we need to endorse and support, because it is the reality of the world that we're living in, in Australia and overseas. We are exposed to incredible diversities. How we communicate with those around us is important at all levels.

Some of the recent statistics, population of Australia around 22 million people, people born overseas from that is 5.8 million, the net overseas migration is almost 300,000, the net overseas migration of those born from those speakers is around 200 different countries. In Queensland we have about 170 different languages in this state. I imagine that in Victoria it is very similar. The refugees living in Australia is around 46,000, close to 46,000. So we're talking about a very diverse population in Australia.

Beata:

I just wanted to make a point, just popping it in - two slides to make a statement. As another said, we really wanted to emphasise that the framework, the cross-cultural framework is not about working with people from non-English speaking backgrounds, because basically that's how our population - we are very multi-cultural in Australia and this is the point where need to come from when we work. This is not some special work, special requirement, this is actually responding to our community needs. Our community is multi-cultural and we need to actually respond to the community appropriately.

Everybody has a right to participate in our community and if we do not respond in an appropriate cross-cultural way, then what are we doing? Are we working with our community? Actually, not, we very, very often hear those things, it takes too long working with these people, it takes extra resources, it takes extra skills. So if we're not doing that extra it shouldn't ever - considered as extra, because that's our multi-cultural community. There are many components to the diversity it's not just the ethnic background, but within the ethnic background and whatever the ethnic background is, or whether that it is Australian background, there is also diversity within that is - going to be needed to responded to.

These are just some of the components, but it is ever, ever growing and they are really so many of this component so - just to make the point.

Annabelle:

Beata and I share our presentations. We've worked on our presentations together but we've, of course, facilitated many times and that's how we choose to do it and it works for us and I hope it works for you too.

Beata:

I wanted to say, just one more. I wanted to say...

[Laughter]

Beata:

...if you don't understand us...

Annabelle:

Yes, ask us.

Beata:

Yes and we will explain it, because I understand that I have accent and a very strong accent. I'm very proud of that accent, so I going to just explain a little bit differently.

Annabelle:

We'd like to talk about - called the NESB. We are aware that nationally Australia endorses the CLD, Culturally and Linguistically Diverse. At Immigrant Women's Support Service we continued to use NESB. Over the time we had mailed him to use him a little bit of both. However we like to acknowledge that issue of language creates that added barrier. You don't speak English - it becomes very hard to negotiate and to feel that you're part of where you're living. We understand that anyone who comes to a new country, irrespective of their background would experience cultural shock, would experience the issues of settling into a new environment and we acknowledge that.

However, when you don't speak the language it's not as if you can turn on the TV and listen. It's not as if you can pick up a paper and read and become aware. It's not as if you can turn on the radio and just hear what is happening in the world outside your door. That creates a huge barrier that we will continue to talk throughout the day, but that impedes in the way that people integrate and can feel part of the country that they're living in now. Who are women from culturally and linguistically diverse backgrounds? Now, we are talking about migrants, we are talking about people - migrants generally tend to make a choice about coming to Australia. We are talking about refugees and generally refugees don't have a choice about coming to this country.

They are forced to leave their country and they have little options at times of returning to their country. We are talking about asylum seekers. Asylum seekers are people who have come to this country, whatever means and as you're all aware the media calls them many names, but they're seeking to stay in Australia and go through the process of refugee. Temporary residents on working and travelling visas and these are people who have come and Australia has opened the doors for working people to come and join. I know in Queensland, normally in rural and remote areas a lot of people have gone to work and they come with a visa that is normally for two years, sometimes it's extended and the issue for us in this context is that their spouse and children are attached to that visa.

When issues of domestic violence happened, then it becomes a very difficult task to support those women, because they're attached to the visa that their partner has. Women in detention centres around Australia and overseas. We mention this because in Queensland it's become identifiable that there are women from detention centres who are being taken to IWSS to be counselled with a security guard next to them. So these women are still in detention centres. We know that women and children have been exposed to sexual violence in detention centres over years, like from the [TPD] until now, they have continued to be exposed to sexual violence.

We suspect that if it's happening in Queensland then it's happening in other parts of Australia. Unlawful citizens. These are people who have overstayed their visa and they're unlawful in terms of the law. International students. Now, Australia has become a place where a lot of international students arrive and seek their education. It's a huge business and IWSS provides counselling to a lot of women and over the years a lot of women who are international students. Unaccompanied minors. We will be talking specifically about international students and unaccompanied minors today. Unaccompanied minors are children who have come to Australia and they don't have their parents with them.

They may have an older brother or maybe no, maybe they're on their own, but once they arrive in the country and live in the community then they're placed in foster care. Second generation migrants. We bring these second generation migrants in because whilst second generation migrants would have the language and the understanding of the culture in Australia, the issues of culture itself create a huge reach in terms of dealing with issues of sexual violence. We know that inside the door there's the culture of origin and outside the door is the dominant culture.

Those are challenges that sometimes are not easy to reach for a young person and very difficult for parents as well. So as a service provider, as a practitioner, we need to be mindful of what are some of those issues. I've got the definition of refugee and I guess whilst we are going to specifically talk about refugees, I'd like us to just be mindful of what is the definition in terms of the United Nations. It says, a refugee is someone that owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable to, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country.

I think it is important for us to keep in mind, who are refugees, because it actually identifies some of the trauma that the people that we have contact with could potentially have had, or whether if they haven't had it themselves, their family and community may have been exposed to?

[Inaudible audience question]

Beata:

We do at times see Aboriginal women and we have a very close relationship with Aboriginal service. It's interesting because actually many NESB women feel very, very comfortable to be supported by Aboriginal refugees, for instance, so that is very interesting. The spiritual connection as well and how women deal with the issues of trauma, many NESB women deal with the issues of trauma and how it is appropriate, how they are supported by Aboriginal women. In the same way we're open to receive Aboriginal women in our service, but it's not a real inflow of the clients that we're receiving. Somehow the issue's perceived that we are working only with women from non-English speaking background, so we are really exclusive to this group. We understand that there are other services and there's a lot Aboriginal services too. Only NESB women and only for sexual harassment program, only NESB women 15 years and plus, who have experienced sexual violence at any time in their life, or who are mothers who have children - are in a risk situation though.

Annabelle:

Kids, we acknowledge that there are issues. Our core business is women from non-English speaking background, our funding is targeted to women from non-English speaking background. So in that we have strict boundaries. Acknowledging that, of course, there are indigenous women experienced a number of barriers, absolutely.

Beata:

We've done quite a bit of contact with South Pacific Islanders and, as I said we have a close and warm collaboration, but...

[Inaudible audience question]

Annabelle:

That's a very good point.

Female 1:

It is Victoria.

Annabelle:

Well, Queensland is a huge area. We have a lot of - all the referrals come to the site, so basically we're restricted. The organisation provides telephone support to any service throughout Queensland and that has always been happening. The sexual assault program develops resources which are shared with other services throughout Queensland.

Beata:

About 3000 brochures a year, we think. We give a lot of resources and we support all the professionals and if I could tell actually as a sexual assault program for immigrant women who think, specifically women who experience sexual harassment, we're the only one in Australia. That's why Antonia has actually - we had the privilege to be here instead of another service, because we're the only one in Australia that is as specific. Very small, we have only three service delivery workers who are part time, two days a week. We have two counsellors and me, coordinator, who's doing the counselling and coordination and we all work two days a week; one admin that is also supporting us for two days a week.

That's why the strategy about, yes, we do counselling. We do counselling over the phone when women call us from different towns, because we operate state-wide, but our strategy is to influence or to support other professionals because we can't do the work it's impossible. So we really want people to do their work with immigrant women and to do in the way that we think that is working for us. Because the women - we know that in Brisbane, even though there are many sexual assault services, in the area that NESB women are still not accessing other services, they're coming to us.

The domestic violence program in IWSS, which is operating very closely with us, has about 600 women referrals coming through every year. So there's many women that [unclear].

Annabelle:

Over 400 children, accompanied children.

[Inaudible audience question]

Annabelle:

What we're sharing today, as I've said earlier today, is about our experiences of working with people. Whilst we have the definitions such that are refugees and immigrant and we have migrants, the skill workers is [unclear]. While some of the experience maybe different, when it comes to issues of violence there are many similarities. I guess we'd would like to point out the issues of people who have experienced war conflict, civil unrest and other types of conflict in their lifetime. Whilst some of them maybe refugees, the fact that someone has migrated then as a migrant and therefore we assume that they're experience is different.

It may be different, but they are all so many similarities. I also the bring issue of socio-economic because a lot of workers who go into other countries, domestics - domestic workers they're called, they experience significant violence and trauma in the host country. Some of those women are accessing our services in the community. They've arrived in Australia, in fact, I remember a case where the worker had arrived, the women who came to IWSS had arrived in Australia with this couple and their child and she was the nanny and the domestic for this couple. All the paperwork was there, it said that she was attached to that unit and the level of violence that this woman had experienced in that context was horrific.

So I guess what we want to - our observation is that violence has different shades and whilst the immigration standards provide some content, there are many differences and there are many similarities. So it is about expectation and exploring, what is happening for the person maybe sitting next to us?

Beata:

We really want to acknowledge the expertise in the room and we don't want to appear like we're trying to [unclear] or teach anyone because we actually waiting to hear from you so we can learn from you. But the whole idea of having that status and then making assumptions sometimes because when people make assumptions they want to know about the refugees and then when they work with the refugees they think they will be okay. So there are the possible experiences that the refugees have, but not necessarily have the assumptions when they work with the international worker, or international students, we need to be mindful of that.

This is our experience that people come - women come as a migrant, as a family reunion, as an international student visa and they hold very similar experiences, but because they haven't chosen to seek a refuge at the time when they were experiencing that, or they didn't have the option, or they didn't know what to do, they didn't become a refugee, but the experiences can be very, very similar. On the other hand, sometimes we make assumptions. I remember the case when we had a little - we both were working within the group and there was woman in class and she was very, very distressed, because she had a headache, she was feeling very sick, especially the headaches and the aches and pains were killing her.

Every time she went to her GP and she was talking to the GP about that, because she was of refugee background and she was like a nearly new arrival, he was sending her to the torture and trauma centre. During discussion this women actually had lost her newborn baby and she had to move during that time, so it was a woman's health - she needed counselling because there was a woman's health issue. But straightaway, every time she was presenting herself with all these symptoms everybody was sending her to the torture and trauma, because she was a new arrived refugee. We asked her about it and she said, no, actually we fled just before anything happened and, of course, there was a lot of experiences and witnessing, but she didn't feel at that time that she needed to do anything in relation to that. So on both sides...

Annabelle:

Unaccompanied minors. I mentioned unaccompanied minors earlier and that's the formal definition of unaccompanied minors. But what we wanted and what we've identified in the paper, this is a very contentious issue. It contentious because the assumption is that when you come to - when your family is not with you, then the extended family is the next best option. The Australian Government has that option that if you come and your cousin, or your uncle, or your aunty is in the community then that's the person that you're going to be living with.

The reality is that that may not always be the best option. The reality is that there are significant pressures and powers and abuse happens in the best home environments and we know that. So I guess when we talk about unaccompanied minors we want to put it out there to you that that always needs to be ensured that it's a safe arrangement for the young person. Because once you're in that environment, it is very hard to go against your elder, the reality is you're living with an elder and it's your word against theirs. In the community what we see, something that the elder person has the power. In communities elders have significant power.

So if a person is living in that arrangement, it would be very difficult for that person to actually say they're being exposed to violence. What is our role in that situation? Again, what they are perceiving, it is not about making assumptions, it's about having an open mind and listening really sharply to what's being said and to what's not being said, because that person may not actually be feeling very comfortable to say that there are things happening in that home that are making them unsafe. I also bring into light the fact that nationally we have about 700 children in detention centre and some of them would be unaccompanied minors. Whilst the abuse may happen - I just mention that we need to concede that the possibility's there that children are going to be joined with extended family and abuse may happen.

It happens in any family and foster care is not abstract to know that abuse happens in foster care. So the current political environment that we've got is that there's over 700 children in detention centre and at some point they're going to be released from the centres and some of them do have parents, but a lot of them don't. This is not a new phenomenon, back in 2000 when the TPV issues came on board a lot of unaccompanied minors were discharged into the community and it's tragic. You have young people who don't speak the language, who don't have an understanding, who are craving to be in a family environment and they're placed with families who don't speak their language and who abuse them. So keep an open mind.

Beata:

Plus the whole desire of resorting to identity issues as well, especially when young people are coming here there's already an isolation of feeling the difference, being called different, [unclear] and being very difficult and there is the craving to have that proximity to their own culture, to identify with and then negotiating what is better, the abuse or to have actually their proximity of their culture of their own. You probably have noticed that stepping a little bit gently around the issue because we don't want to make any suggestions, but the fact is that we see people who came here without parents and who are in the foster families as well.

Annabelle:

I guess when we talk we also acknowledge that the women that we work with from culturally and linguistically diverse backgrounds also are the only link to their history, their life history to their identity, it is the perpetrator who comes from the same country. So whilst we talk about choices, what choice is there? You make the choice of coming out and talking about the abuse, or you make the choice of being ostracised from your family, from your community. So from the perspective of the women from a diverse cultural background, there are many value valid choices. So it is working from the perspective of that woman and not from a view that perhaps they need to be changing where they are. You have a question - can you hold on for a second with that question - beautiful?

International students. I said earlier that we have international students accessing the system in Australia. Now, what we've seen is that international students are as vulnerable as anyone else in the community. We have people who come to this country to seek education and they're exposed to sexual violence. They do not know their rights in Australia, they don't know their options, they have no family in Australia and they're being sexually abused. I guess in terms of the consequences there are severe consequences, often we see women who return to their country of origin. They can't continue their studies in Australia, their families have often ostracised them because of what has happened.

Women have made decisions to keep their babies when they have become pregnant. In terms of the issues for that woman, it's a lifetime consequence as a result. We also see that there is little - one of the responsibilities of the government, these are people who are living under Australian law, there are people who made a choice to come to Australia and yet they're resources in the community are very scant. These women often are exposed to abuse, not just sexual abuse but the financial...

Beata:

Sexual harassment.

Annabelle:

...and the sexual harassment. We find that a lot of international students actually don't have a lot of money. They make great sacrifices to get here, but they have to work really hard to keep those registration in different education systems. So they work, they work a lot. The exposure to sexual violence within those work environments is high and what we can offer as a service is limited and I suspect that it would be for any other service in Australia. But we like to talk about international students because it's not just what you hear on the news, it's not just the fact that they come here and they're working and they're taking all these part-time jobs, there is a lot of abuse that goes with that too.

They are very vulnerable because of the isolation and sometimes they are very, very young. We have students who are 12, 13 who have come to this country and their family thinks that it's the best thing for them, to give them that international experience, but they're in close families who are incredibly abusive. I guess in talking about that I also want to acknowledge the assumptions that we make as practitioners, the issues of thinking that international students have significant resources, which is not always the case. The fact that the power imbalances in the relationships can be quite significant, so not making an assumption again is the thing that I'd like to identify.

[Inaudible audience question]

Annabelle:

It's very interesting when we talk about those rights, because when working with women who are sponsored by Australian permanent residents and Australians, I remember some years ago, we met with the Department of Immigration and like you, we thought, well, these women need to know what their options are. So that when they arrive in Australia and the relationship is not all coloured glasses, that they know what their options are, but from the perspective of the Act it was no, it's an issue of confidentiality, it's a private issue, we can't be following through. Because in our view we thought that any woman who is sponsored to come to Australia should be...

Beata:

unclear]

Annabelle:

...[unclear], yes and followed through. Have a three-monthly visit and say, how are you going, away from the partner? Have the six-month visit, not wait until the woman is killed sometimes. Yet the Department of Immigration view was that the issues of privacy and confidentiality - and therefore they couldn't. There is also perception that talking about gender balance is too early for new arrivals, with work, with settlement workers who rightly so, they have a million things to actually talk about. The issues of violence, domestic and sexual violence, are de-prioritised in that context. So you're talking about housing, health, education - so domestic violence is not mentioned. Options and law in Australia is not mentioned, because it's too early, it's too shocking, it's too much information.

Beata:

That's what the perception is, of course, yes.

Annabelle:

Which is true, however we also know that some women experience tragic consequences three or four days after arrival. Now, on the issue of international students I think, yes, information should be there. I guess, this is my personal opinion, it is a business arrangement for some. You know, you have colleges who are supporting the business of bringing all these people here. You have businesses in Australia that are linked to other business overseas in bringing this student. If you want to identify that there's a potential of incidences of sexual violence and no support in the community, it doesn't add to the business mind. That's my personal view.

Beata:

I guess in a way and it's not that we have any solutions for it, we don't have any solutions straightaway.

Annabelle:

We have a lot of issues.

Beata:

We have a lot of issues, but in a way arguing for the international student there is a perception that they can access the information about Australia law, even before arriving and in relation to sexual assault, this is an issue about law. But the thing is that everybody who works with a sexual assault or trauma issue knows how it's not - there's always these dark, there's always these unclear perception, even for Australian women, whether, was that assault? Maybe that was my fault, there's the shame, there's the guilt, there's an awful lot grey areas? For international student, I am international student, I just come to Australia, maybe I caused the trouble, maybe it was my fault. He was of the same background, I shouldn't do this, I shouldn't do - and plus, many women sometimes think that they have been involved in something that maybe it was illegal, you know, maybe they will find out that I missed two or three classes. If I go to report to the police then maybe Immigration will know about it maybe that will influence my visa and the ability to stay here. So there is a lot about this stuff.

But we have noticed that the international students who choose to report, they will receive some support from the police. The issue is that most of the women don't want to report, because they don't anybody to know. They don't want to worry their family, they don't want anybody to know. Then there are major probably percentage that we absolutely don't have a clue what is happening, because we never had contact with. The responsibility that we have as Australia to provide that properly the safe environment, that's a huge issue.

[Inaudible audience question]

Annabelle:

The nature of violence experienced by women from culturally and linguistically diverse backgrounds, talking about torture and trauma resulting from conflicts. When we talk about torture and trauma, as I said early, it's not just the possible torture that an individual might have experienced, it is about witnessing the trauma of others. When trauma is inflicted it's meant to de-stabilise the individual, the family and the community and it has that ripple effect. So the person that may be in front of you may be a survivor of torture and trauma. People living in refugee camps. Now, what we know is that people have lived in refugee camps for extended period of time.

Seventeen years is not abnormal and in fact, as I said yesterday, that 17 years was the average for people to live in refugee camps. Refugee camps are incredibly violent places and our information is that a lot of women are forced into partnerships with men in refugee camps in order to survive. It is not an option, there's no romanticism in the fact that you set up a partnership with a man for the purpose of survival of yourself and your children, very violent places. There's a lot of power and violence there, that the women that would be working that experience in order to feed their children, women have to go out and collect things, do things and then the issues of sexual violence happen.

The journey of women who've been in refugee camps is long. They've been the journey of getting to a refugee camp is not an overnight thing, the journey of actually leaving that camp and coming to Australia is longer still. Each of the detention centres, the violence I've already talked about, the violence that happens in detention centres within Australia that we hear about, the queue jumpers we hear about, the people seeking asylum - we don't hear to the extent that violence happens in detention centres for men, women and children. For the women that we work with, there is a lot of violence, there's a lot of sexual abuse and it's same for children.

Trafficking and sexual slavery,. Beata did this beautifully, so she can do this again.

Beata:

Well, quietly I was just bragging again about it, about the fact that, yes, we see the women who have been trafficked and have been forced to provide sexual services. But we had a recollection the other day at our service and we actually decided that - come with the conclusion that nearly 60 per cent of the women that we've seen, IWSS, actually been trafficked to Australia. Because how women are trafficked, how we perceive trafficked women, or what is the definition of traffic women, it's not so clear? Women are trafficked in different ways. For instance, very common for the women that we see in IWSS is that she would be invited by Australian partner, she might be married and straightaway when she comes here to Australia. She would be placed somewhere in a rural area to work on a farm straightaway, sometimes from the airport - nearly 24 hours a day, while in the break providing sex to all the other members on the farm.

Not having been completed isolated, not having a contact, not knowing what was happening and groomed to that, in a beautiful way when he went and, I love you and all these beautiful things and the moment that she came everything changes. So it's common thing. Then we talk about the domestic violence and then accessing the domestic violence provision, but that woman was trafficked by me and many of the women are trafficked in that way.

Annabelle:

So it's about looking at the situation that you've got in front of you and having awareness, or those broader issues, because a lot of money has been put by the Federal Police around the trafficking of women. But you know, in the conversations until you have those examples, how do we make those links? I think it's about that raising awareness of the women who are actually coming to Australia in different circumstances. Sex Trading. I think that in itself, there's a lot of violence in that. I guess I acknowledge that in Queensland, at least, there were a couple of years ago there were a couple of different views. There was the view that women make the choice about that form of employment and there's the other view that it's not.

I'm not going there to discuss, I think that's a different topic, but in itself there's a lot of violence inherent in sex trading. Vulnerable relationships with a spouse and fiancée. Beata has touched on the issue of Australian men, permanents residents bringing spouses over to Australia. There's the example of the women who actually had a long-term relationship with this man in her country, about eight years. What happened was that they had a child and then he decided to bring her over. So she came over. A long-standing relationship, he used to travel regularly and visit her. When she came here and then she decided to go overseas, he wouldn't let her go and he wouldn't - she didn't have permanent residency - he wouldn't let go of the child.

So there's a lot of fear around the issues of permanent resident for women who are brought in Australia and there are incredible power imbalances in that.

Beata:

Yes. I think already you often talk about the issue of relationships, or the issue of domestic violence and wondering why do not women receive their information when they come here to Australia. We think that actually because of the vulnerable position of the women when they come here to Australia, because of the power imbalance, well, she is really - that could be also a pipe dream. But the new - not less person - when she's actually placing the power within somebody else's hand, because she is trustful. That's already created a very vulnerable situation in terms of sexualities. We know sexuality is about power and that's the situation and it's like a prerequisite, we should be providing information. That's a beautiful recommendation, I think, to DIAC.

Annabelle:

Issues of child sexual abuse, witness and others being abused. We've talked about that. Cultural and national trauma. Now, we will talk a little bit more about that. Some of the risk factors and these are some of the risk factors for women. The lack of protective laws in some countries, the cultural justification. I think the sample that always comes to mind with this that of those Lebanese men who raped those women. There was a lot of issues inherent in that in that a lot of women wouldn't come out and talk about the violence they were experiencing at home, so that their cultural background was not linked once again to issues of violence.

So when we talk about cultural justification, sometimes it is for two culture and what is the impact of that? In our experience, the impact is that we actually put values for women to access our services. Environmental war and civil unrest, personal beliefs and upbringing. We will talk about that and whether some of those impact. Lack of familiarity with the Australian context and systems. International mis-information by perpetrators - intentional.

The issue of bringing people over as spouses or fiancées is particularly a good example in terms of intentional.

Beata:

Good example, yes. We spoke about it yesterday, but this why another example - how the perpetrators mis-informed their victim, you all have a clue about it. There is a process and sometimes I think they're so creative that if they put their creativity somewhere else we could do well, but just one of the examples. I remember one the women, who was coming to our service, she has not identified herself as being sexually assaulted, but she had some past experiences of some sexual abuse. She thought, I want to access the counselling. She was worried because she thought that she's suffered - she's not a good wife and she's actually not comfortable with that what her husband is asking her to do.

She feels very bad that can't do it when he asks her. She said, you know, he's taking me to this international class and I really don't like it, I feel so uncomfortable and then I feel so bad about it. So I asked about the international class, yes, what are the international class? She said, this is the places where all the Australian husbands are taking their Asian wife and they can have sex with each other. You know, they all have sex there and I don't feel very, very comfortable with that. I come from different background, my family wouldn't so - and I told him that, but he said that all Australian wives are doing that and this is the good thing to do.

So I don't know what to do, there's something wrong with me and all these things, yes. So creativity, creativity and this is just not just isolated example, because many women come and they say, I can't do it, he tell me that all Australian wife are doing that, this is the way to do it, but I can't do it. This is just one of the examples, but we know that they are very creative.

Annabelle:

I guess the other example that comes to mind for me is the - and I did share that yesterday - was a women who came in and she had been in Australia for seven years. She had experienced domestic violence and when we asked the question of whether she was a permanent resident she said, no. You're not? No, no. I said, okay. So the process starts as if she's not a permanent resident and she's been in Australia for seven years, which is not rare, it is possible that someone has been in Australia and is still not a permanent resident, but this person thought that she wasn't.

When the worker did all the checking and referrals, what turned out - that the person had been a permanent resident in Australia for five years, but he kept using the issue that she was not as a way of maintaining the threat and maintaining the fear in the relationship. So I guess in terms of the work that we need to engage in, is that issue of education, raising awareness and constant questioning about what is happening for that woman, because they are intentionally misled. The immigration stats - the uncertainty of survival. Issues of Income. It's not abstract, women who don't have permanent residency have limited to no income, which actually renders services in a lot of difficulties in terms of maintaining the support for that women.

Issues of Racism. I guess as much as it's a bit hard to take sometimes, Australia, once you start scratching the surface, Australia can be very racist. I'm mindful that whatever apathy we have, it permeates to the way we deliver our service and the way that the client would be perceive you - us. The western approach and rigidity of some service providers. What we talk about is the fact that to work with people from diverse cultural backgrounds, there is a lot of flexibility that takes place. You need to engage with professional interpreters. You need to actually allocate sufficient time to work with a professional interpreter.

You need to sometimes facilitate, not unlike other clients facilitate the access to the service. Sometimes you need to provide the childcare. Sometimes you actually need to talk about some of the things that are culturally relevant for that woman, because you're working from her perspective, not yours. Some of the risk issues. Some of the systemic and cultural barriers for CLD women, the lack of both cultural awareness and sensitivity by service providers and, obviously the fact that you're all here today it points to your personal interest and also your organisation's interest that you gain that knowledge.

Inappropriate or inconsistent use of interpreters by service providers. The issue of working with an interpreter, it could be a whole day workshop in itself, there's a lot of inherent issues in working with professional interpreters. From my point of view, it is always the responsibility of a service provider, of the practitioner, to actually know how to work with interpreters. If you don't know how to work with interpreters your journey is challenging.

Beata:

Yes and especially when it comes to the responding to the issue of sexual abuse within different cultures. It needs to be really responded very, very appropriately. The interpreter issues: we need to know how to work with interpreters, within a therapeutic context, how to counsel with the interpreters and to be aware of their confidentiality issue. We find that interpreters are coming from a small community and what to do when the women will not disclose, even when there was a professional interpreter present. We need to actually explain all things in order for women to feel comfortable, because otherwise we're going nowhere.

Annabelle:

I think we also need to acknowledge that there are interpreters that are terrific at counselling and others who are terrific at legal interpreting, but try to put them in opposite directions and they're hopeless. It's not a reflection, basically it's about being aware that sometimes we're good at some things and better at others and we don't do all jobs as well as the other. But some interpreters are not good interpreters in counselling sessions and it is the practitioner's awareness of that and understanding how to manage. It's about managing the content of working with interpreters. It is our responsibility, not the woman, although the woman will be the one aware that things are not happening for her.

I remember some years ago that we went through a committal hearing with a woman, it happened to be a Japanese woman who had been brought back from Japan, an international student, to go to the committal hearing. The interpreter they had in court was not - wouldn't say penis in court. Now, this is a rape situation, so we have to be aware that the interpreter is actually sensitive and suitable for the interaction that we have to undertake. A common belief in mainstream services, that the level of linguistic articulation and competency in the English language is an indicator of a person's credibility and intelligence. We see that all the time, that if you cannot communicate then there's something wrong with you.

There is something out there and, of course, not everyone is the same, but as soon as you have an accent, have you noticed how people raise their voice?

Audience:

Yes.

Annabelle:

Hello, I've got an accent, but I'm not stupid. But it happens all the time and it doesn't matter how long you've been in Australia, it happens.

Beata:

With the best intention, I mean, that's yelling in your ear. Or the comments, even with the referral, her English is not very good, but she is a bright women, she is intelligent.

[Laughter]

Beata:

So this already implies at lot, yes.

[Laughter]

Annabelle:

I know.

Beata:

With the best intention they're thinking, how many times we've heard that, how many times I've heard that, well, myself.

Annabelle:

I can remember I was in this meeting with a number of people and they're very intelligible, they're very intelligible. I'm thinking, if they say that one more time.

[Laughter]

Annabelle:

She did and, they're very intelligible. I said, with all due respect, just because someone speaks another language doesn't make them stupid. Of course, it is incredibly - I am pointing to the rule of advocacy that we have to undertake, it is an incredibly fraught journey for people who don't speak English and for women who have experienced sexual violence. Our role there is about being an advocate and as tiresome as it is, that's what we have to constantly do. Perhaps that's a really good moment to stop.

Beata:

The second part, I wanted to focus a little bit on the specific issues when supporting women who might be experiencing - who have experienced a sexual abuse and are considering - or why women are not considering to seek support? So very often we hear from all the service providers that they do not receive women from non-English speaking background seeking support in relation to their abuse. What we know, what our practice informs us, is that women from NESB, most women from NESB, would consider they experienced some sexual abuse that's shaming them. I know that this is a common factor for all women who have experienced sexual abuse, but for women from NESB this is a major problem.

That comes from many different factors. The fact that in different countries there are no laws around the issues of experiencing sexual abuse, there is not protection available for women, there are different cultural justifications. So when the women come here to Australia experiencing maybe an impact of their abuse that they have experienced in the past, or they have experienced sexual abuse here in Australia, they very often assume that this the same context here in Australia that they have had back in their home country.

I want you to reflect for a moment on the fact, how we do internalise laws. Very often when the laws or social laws are in the country where we live, where we are brought up, we always try to justify and understand the laws and the context. That's why we actually internalise, we make sense out of that and we argue with that, otherwise we have real problem to follow it, to be obedient. So the same thing is happening for women from non-English speaking background. When they lived in their different context, different cultural context, they internalise already the laws and the context of the country of origin. When they come to Australia this is like, of course, it's the same because that's how it's supposed to be.

So unless we provide the women with information about how it is different in the context of Australia, they very much would be having that barrier of not wanting to approach and also there's the stigma associated with seeking professional support. In many cultures it is shameful to actually go and see a counsellor, if there is any concept of counsellor, but to go and see maybe a doctor about the decision, because they - or a mental health worker. Mental health is an area that is very much stigmatised by many, many cultures as well. It's not like it wasn't stigmatised here in Australia as well, because we're still trying to hide people who are experiencing psychiatric disabilities. We also know that women when they consider disclosing sexual assault, they experience the pressure from within their community about not disclosing.

It comes in different forms. If can be if there is a social network and the women disclosed within their social network about the intention to disclose and then it will be, ah, you know, there's the stigma that would be associated with our community. There is the pressure from the elders, we do work with elders - we consult with elders in Queensland quite often in relation to how to develop our proper responses to women and we know that the issue of sexual assault is still very much at their - type of topic. So there is that pressure and even that pressure comes from outside the country, when a women receive phone calls saying, you shouldn't be bringing that up - this is no good, this is shame to the family.

Probably there is also something that we really need to consider and take it seriously, because in many cultures - I know that you know that I'm just reminding you - that in many cultures the consequences of the shame that comes with disclosing sexual abuse will be impacting on the family members and also on the saving. So if there are, for instance, any girls in the family, they might have a difficulty to get married just because their sister has experienced sexual abuse.

[Inaudible audience question]

Beata:

So I just wanted to talk a little bit also about the understanding of sexual violence and how can that - the understanding - how the women do not identify very often themselves as experiencing sexual assault, because of the context of Australia. The diversity of forms. It comes in different forms, the assault within marriage, the assault very much manipulated in the way or the consent induced in so many different ways, that it's difficult for women to recognise that it has happened. Also the diversity of justification that very often comes with the cultural background, because it was justified within my community, or within my country in this way, so it must be right. It is all right and assumptions that this is the same in Australia.

With the diversity of justification, I remember quite a few workers from IWSS services have asked me that question. Beata, how do you respond, how are being sensitive to the issues to the cultural issues when the woman do not identify that she has experienced sexual abuse or domestic violence? So what do you do to be sensitive because, you know, their cultures are so different? Then you know that it's happening, but she doesn't say that is happening. When I hear when that somebody says the culture is different, different cultures are different, or the cultures so violent I get really cranky. I am thinking, no, there's nothing violent about different cultures, because violence is violence.

It comes in different forms, but still we look to that violence is just coming from the same source. What is different about different cultures is the justification. We'll do justify violence differently and we do justify violence in all cultures, the same with the issues of child protection, we have that justification that we think it is fine, as long as we do not go to another country, which has a very different view. For instance, in relation to child protection issue, we have very really strict child protection laws here in Australia, but I very often wonder about it. In Australia we send children to work aged 14 and nine months and it's all right.

In my country it's considered child abuse. So you see, you don't see it and its okay, it's justified here, it's good for young people and then gauges whether for them to do this thing and the other things, plus provide them with experience. In my country it's exploitation of children. So there is always these things that are different.

Female 2:

Can we ask what's your country?

Beata:

Poland. There are many other issues that client is not very good in, but you have to be 18 to enter workforce and actually parents are to support children as long as they study, even if that happens to be 28. So that's the diversity of understanding, because everybody makes sense based on their background, based on their beliefs, making sense of what has happened to them and whether the sexual violence experience that they have experienced is actually causing their sexual abuse or not. Maybe also important for us to remember that even though that, yes, the cultural aspect are very important, you need to be aware that it will be reflected differently in each and every individual. Then it will go to the beginning of the slides with the diversity and the components of the diversity, everything will influence how the person will perceive their own experiences of sexual abuse.

So what are the influencing factors? These are just a few, just to bring back the memories in you. That social status in defence it will influence very much how a woman understand their own experience and we've been working with women from the same countries, who have different social status and very, very different approach and understanding to their experiences. I just wanted to give an example. That is also something that is very relevant when we provide the information and even the written information, we have noticed that a lot of written translated material that is produced in different languages for women, is using language that is actually targeted for women who are education formally. While we had the feedback from women that, even though it is in that woman's language, but the words are not very clear.

So be aware that actually the simple language is the best one, because at least can be accessible to women who are having a very elaborative education, or women who might not necessarily had.

Annabelle:

I'd just to add the issue of freedom of information. Just because someone has a piece of written information, doesn't mean that they'd be able to read it. The issues of literacy for a lot of people is non-existent, they may not be literate in their own language, therefore the information you're providing written, it's meaningless. I would also like to say that even in the mainstream context, written information, complex language, may not necessarily be understood. When you're under stress and under a lot of pressure things don't make a lot of sense.

You actually need to sit with someone who will actually unpack what it is that is written and it's a strategy that as strategists we need to continue to work on. But for women from NESB, written information per se may not be the way to go forward. You need to sit with that woman and unpack that information, because she may not be literate in her own language.

Beata:

Even people sometimes are so keen to translate information to the extent that even though their addresses, contact addresses and the telephone numbers are written in another language. Now, when you're thinking about, for example, Chinese or Thai: you would think that woman would have translated everything and how is she going to find that address, looking at Australian - different western symbology? Or how is she going to dial the telephone number in cases of needs, when her eight doesn't reflect the same eight, for instance, that she has on the telephone, so practicalities, but pure logic. So education, family would also be the one that would influence how the woman understands her own experience of sexual violence and age.

Cultures are dynamic and we are also a very changing dynamic so women of different age understand differently their experience of sexual abuse. Gender, of course, and the settlement and where woman is at her settlement curve.

Annabelle:

I thought we would be looking at that. As I said earlier this morning, settlement - we all experience of levels of settlement and adjustment when you come to a new environment. In our experience and what we know about culture shock, is that a family would settle differently in Australia. You may have the woman settle in, okay, you may have the man who is settling really well. The children will experience different levels of adjustment as well. Sometimes we make assumptions that children are children, they'll settle okay, because they pick up the language. However, you need to consider that those children have left - have lost parents, grandparents, extended families, significant others, extended support system as have their parents. So the levels of adjustment in terms of settlement, are very different within every family and we can't say that everyone is settling in okay.

What Beata was referring to is that new curve and what you normally see is that people are doing really well, they've left the country where the trauma is and they come to Australia and reality sinks in. You have people who have been exposed to a lot of trauma, Australia may not necessarily be the first country that they've come to. Australia is often the second, third or fourth country that they've come to. So they've experienced a number of settlement experiences. Now, they get a letter from back home, you know, good news, bad news, indifferent, but the issues of grief and loss have retriggered. So whilst they might've been in a really good space give a little, a telephone call, or find out something about what's happening back home and you go down from that new curve.

So I guess in terms of settlement, we often hear that people want to say, but she's been here for 20 years and she still doesn't learn the language or, she's been here for 30 years, what's wrong with them? The reality is that when someone has experienced significant trauma, the capacity for that person to acquire the language is limited. You know, as service providers we need to be mindful, what has happened for this person for their ability to pick up the nuances of this context.

Beata:

Thank you, Annabelle. So settlement will also be having a major impact on the way that the woman might be understanding her experiences of sexual abuse, past and present, because it's a dynamic process and it undergoes changes. For all of those who have worked in the [unclear] services you can see how sometimes, but not sometimes but all the time actually, for people who have experienced sexual abuse when they were very young, how that understanding of their own experience is actually changing with the age, with acquiring different skills and a different way of understanding the world.

Grief and loss has a major impact as well. Whether the woman will be moving on with her understanding that is aligned to the context of Australia, or she will be still having the same understanding. Torture and trauma and the migration process and how all of these are very important in influencing the dynamics of the understandings of the sexual assault. There are also other influences that are coming from women themselves and that is related to everybody's individual and women have individual differences in how they perceive what is happening in their life, the stages of life and maturity, their culture, social influences and experiences of migration and the changes of the environment.

What we have observed that is quite a challenging - very challenging moments when woman meet with us and we provide them with the Australian context, of how Australia perceives the sexual abuse or sexual violence against women. Women often giggle and that's when the issue of the perception within marriage - when we talk to the women and provide information that in Australia there is a law that provides protection for women who experience sexual abuse from their intimate partners and that it's actually against the law, even if they are married, that their sexual contact would be happening without consent, women giggle and laugh and look at us with that crazy look and thinking, this is ridiculous.

So, yes, it is happening and it's quite challenging for women to actually to shift straightaway to the, oh, so it's different in Australia? Actually it's okay for me to disclose or, yes, it doesn't happen overnight. With one sort of a short talk information it doesn't happen too, because from all this information that we provide, sometimes women take just enough for them to link with their past experiences so they can form another concept. But then when they come back there will still a lot of questions, a lot of information that will be missing. So reinforcing this information all the time and sometimes it takes quite a few years for women actually to change their perception of what is their relationship in the world as a victim of sexual abuse?

We often hear from the service provider's comments, oh, I told her already, she knows about the option and she's the one that needs to make a decision. I can't really hold her hand all the time and that's all right, but the thing is that if you tell a woman completely new information for the first time she will not remember, probably, 80 per cent of that. Can you imagine if you learn Hebrew today, even probably just a few words you would remember, but you wouldn't remember even a sentence. So the same is happening with the women when they come and it's a different concept, different context here in Australia.

Annabelle:

I also wanted to mention the issue of family reunion. When in the - Australia has a lot of migrants, a lot of refugees and a lot of families. There's a pattern that we - a lot of grandparents are joining families who are here. Now, you have an established family in Australia with the children and you have grandparents who are coming over and providing the much needed support. The ergonomics that are happening in those environments, which in an ideal family - it may actually turn out okay. You have a support with extended family. The reality is that families change, migration changes, culture changes back home, so the meeting points that you might have had so easily once upon a time, have changed.

What we are identifying now is that people who are coming over to join, particularly that older generation, is experiencing levels of abuse and the silence permeating in those relationships are quite overt and covert in that their ability for them to actually talk about any abuse that they experience in that environment is not easy. Sometimes these grandmothers are coming with a history of sexual abuse, which has never been shared, but they're exposing a more vulnerable environment now that they're here in a foreign country. They don't understand the language, legal exposure to outside, their children are working, their grandchildren have their lives, so all of those past traumas are coming to the surface, sexual abuse and childhood trauma.

Now, how are we going to deal with that? We have - and you know communities are very close some times, these are not things that are spoken about. These are things that we see in the work that we do, those unique experiences for women who have dared to step out, or have come to a point that is so unbearable that they actually get a friend of a friend to actually take them to get help. So I guess we promote that openness in terms of not assuming that these are foreign families, so they are very tight, it happens in all of the structures.

Beata:

It sounds like we are paranoid, yes? We do probably a little bit, without assumption, not to make assumption, but also not to assume that everything is all right, yes.

Annabelle:

I guess we're privy to a lot of information.

Beata:

It just makes you question then, yes, sometimes - thank you. We're actually not responding to such a huge group, especially I'm thinking about the aged women, who are coming as a family reunion, who never enter into English classes, who have a little bit of contact with the hospital as some other women had.

[Inaudible audience question]

Female 3:

Beata, you and Annabelle both talked about settlement curve in terms of both the different currents within the family of settling and also in terms of a person's individual well-being when they receive a letter or a reminder from home, or from their origin. I'm just wondering, is there also a practical settlement curve, I'm thinking about, say, in about say people who were experiencing homelessness and other housing instability as well as drug and alcohol, etcetera, that they have their own - I guess there's an individual sort of curve there about where they're at, but there's also a whole range of practical kind of service issues that can act really as barriers and obstacles. I'm just wondering what the process - how that impacts, I suppose, for your clients?

Annabelle:

See really it does impact. Yesterday someone presented the question of housing. The settlement support includes housing, Centrelink, education and self-checkout and that is really crucial and a lot of information goes into that. That is very much limited by the resources available from there. English classes, a lot of - 510 hours of...

Beata:

Adult migrant English programs.

Annabelle:

...yes. So that's what happens in that initial stage. The issue of housing is very interesting and I guess that was really good to put out there yesterday and to put it out today again. Because in the Australian context you have a family, you have a bedroom for each person, everybody has their own bubble and God forbid if that was to be crossed. There's a lot of stuff about space. Yet when you have families who have a number of children, very difficult for them to find adequate housing, it creates a lot of tension within families. Sometimes you have families who are being placed in two separate homes because they've got so many children.

But the reality for a lot of families who have spent significant time in refugee camps and in many places in their journey to get to Australia, is that physical space is not the same concept to the western concept of space. A lot of families do want to have all their children near them and they want to sleep with their children in the same room, because that's how they've survived, this is the attachment that they've made with their children and vice versa. I remember this family that I worked with years ago who had been in a detention centre. There was the mum and dad and there were two children under five and the woman was pregnant. They were in isolation for about five months before they were released from the detention centre.

When that family was released from detention centre and in detention they have 10 minutes in the morning, 10 minutes in the afternoon, away from their room and they had a counsellor coming in once a week to counsel the children, to counsel them about the fact that they were in detention centre. But when they were released into the community, the issue that they came to the torture and trauma service for was the fact their children they wouldn't separate from the parents. The two children would not be in their room and it was causing incredible issues of attachment for the children. I guess from a parent point of view, from a counsellor point of view, who would question that? But you, if you have that scenario in an Australian environment just put that scenario into a refugee camp where the flipside is that survival, you know, if any of your children ventures outside...

Beata:

You mean, outside the tent? You might not see them again.

Annabelle:

So the consequence of counselling is something that we to be mindful of. Work with WIPIT in the people's space, in the woman's space in time and not put in our own views, acquired views about what is the correct space for living arrangements? These are challenging thoughts because women are actually losing their children, the children are going into shared protection environment and once you hit that list, very hard to get out and for reasons that are not quite understood, cultural understandings.

Beata:

How would that affect the real curve?

[Aside conversation]

Annabelle:

I think the venture of the real curve is that you are confronting, you are constantly being challenged by the system that you don't understand. I guess these people, women who have survived incredible challenges, they're incredibly resilient and they come to this system which we think is the best for them and yet they're confronted with all of the challenges and are being challenged to, are you a proper parent, because you don't have the right housing?

Beata:

It doesn't matter that you have protected your child for the last 10 years in the refugee camp as a single mother and was actually protecting them with your life, but you're going to lose them in the Australian context because you have neglected them and left them in the proper - this is the experiences that we have with women.

Annabelle:

We hear women say they want to go back, they want to go back because as hard as it was, they did not have to face the challenges that our systems here are putting them through. I guess it is an indication of how we're communicating, it is not impossible to communicate. The same woman who says that has actually come way, way forward when you have done one-to-one work with her. So it not an impossible journey, it is a journey that we need to be aware of what we're doing with our communication skills.

[Inaudible audience question]

Beata:

Absolutely and it's a very real one in terms of the impact of actually taking the lead off and the impact that that might have on the woman's ability and mental health at the time when they live with that trauma and how it might be perceived by, for instance, the partners of child safety or other services. So, yes, we had that experience of women actually holding on. That is not only common to the refugee women, but also to women who are asylum seekers, or certainly to all the women whose immigration status is unstable, that the woman might be holding, really putting the lead on the experiences and just waiting for a safe and a proper environment and a new - might have the woman accessing to - from experience, accessing our service for different support for 10 years.

The moment she has received the permanent resident and she had a little bit of stability, experiences from 10 years before, just came out like it was happened yesterday. But that's an issue for mothers who wanted to contain that.

Annabelle:

I would also to share the fact that what we've heard from women is that those who are selected in refugee camps are those who are healthy. The selection criteria in those refugee camps actually states that you don't have a mental illness, you don't have a physical disability. The only way that you can live that refugee camp is to actually not have any issues, even though you are living in a refugee camp. Then what assumptions are those women making when they arrive in this country? Are they bringing that assumption with them and saying, well, if this is what they said in the refugee camp, so maybe I cannot talk about it here either. Is that something that is happening here?

Beata:

Yes.

Annabelle:

Because we questioned that, we hear it from the women themselves and how the selection processes take place. I would not hesitate to say that has some internalised issue for that woman in terms of opening up. As a result total...

Beata:

10 minutes. I just shut her up. I said we have 10 minutes.

[Laughter]

Beata:

So not asking you any more questions, thank you very much.

[Laughter]

Beata:

That's the issue that we had when I was - s sexual assault program we have with the whole response to their needs of a people who have experienced sexual assault. We have identified that the responses that we had in Queensland and I suspect that might be similar things all over Australia, are designed to actually respond to women who are the [unclear], who identify themselves as experienced sexual assault, as victims of sexual assault. Now, this is not something that would be happening for many women from non-English speaking background, especially for women who experience the sexual abuse within marriage or who shamed themselves, or feel guilty about their own experiences, or were intentionally misinformed, as we know that most perpetrators will do.

So how do we respond? So how our responses would be - what would we expect really from the structure and design that we've had in all to the response of the needs of victims of sexual assault? We know it's not working for women from non-English speaking background, because it is designed to actually receive people who will identify, yes, I am a victim, I have experienced that and that is not something that is happening for non-English speaking background women. I think the issue of a community education and providing proper information is a very crucial one. So what are the needs of women and this is just a prompt of women from NESB, who have experiences of sexual abuse? Safety. We already mentioned that, emotional stability, immigration status, having accommodation, knowing that the children are all right. So everything is relevant, there has to be a safe space and also that comfort, or confidence of knowing that it's okay for me to bring up the issues.

If there is an a perception of what Annabelle was talking about, that if there's something wrong with you or you're emotional or something, so you might be kicked out of the country, so women would not really feel confident to disclose any of these experiences. To have actually - to know that it is okay, that if she's not responsible - how are we providing information when women are not accessing our service? Again, community education and informing women about the Australian context - how's Australia perceiving sexual violence against women? Confidentially is a huge, huge issue in terms of working with interpreters and assuring appropriate space for immigrant women to access service.

If we talk about their internalised responsibility for the experiences of sexual assault, we talked about the shame. Then, of course, the conclusion would be natural and we know that from our practice as well, the confidentiality around the experiences of sexual abuse are really crucial. Attending to the interpreter's issue is very, very important because otherwise we are not going to get the story. There is no way. Also what would be appropriate to try the interpreter that you would be using. I mean, we had experiences and I'm sure that you had also, with the professional interpreters who are at times actually very short and advise women differently, or interpreting differently. It sometimes happens.

So we've had women at our service and providing information for women over the phone and it was only after we checked with another interpreter, how was that for the woman, that the woman would say, that was horrible, the interpreter told me that I shouldn't be talking about this, that I bring shame to my community. So after experiences like that when we are preparing for having a therapeutic relationship and for full disclosure we want to really make sure that we have our proper interpreter and the practical advice and I know it might sound very, very complex, but what we doing nowadays is that we would provide initial information to a woman with an interpreter over the phone, without disclosing any surnames or personal details.

We will take the telephone number, we will talk a little bit about the sexual abuse and then we will call the woman with another interpreter, to check how was that for woman? If that was all right, then we would engage with the first interpreter because for us - knowing that we might hear actually the woman's story. With the issues of confidentiality it is also important in when we send any information to women, because logic. If women do not speak or read English and we send information from our service, if our service has anything to do with the sexual assault and we send information, where would the woman go with that?

It is possible that she might not even receive the mail herself, it would be a family member and possibly the perpetrator that would be actually the one that will receive mail, or she might just take that letter and go to the first neighbour or someone from the community to translate that for her, that's an issue, that very often unintentional disclosures are happening. So it's a good thing actually to check with woman whether that's okay to send anything from our service and maybe there is an alternative address that she would prefer. How do we make sense actually of the experiences that we have, or maybe possibly even that we have experienced in Australia within the new context of Australia, to be influenced by the Australian western culture, but still hold onto our integrity as a woman from a non-English speaking background?

This is quite an issue for many women, this holding on. If I let go, if I actually will - swept it overside, I will start to think differently about my experiences. What would that mean for me, would I lose myself? That is a real fear, if I'm not that, then who am I then? The integrity issues are very, very important. We often have questions about the spirituality and the spiritual approach of women from non-English speaking background, how come that the woman always bring the religion, they're too religious, or they have all these beliefs.

But think about it, if you were to come to a new country and you had nothing, absolutely nothing, with you that you can really recognise as a reflection in your life, then what would you hold onto? The only thing that is constant for many of women is the core beliefs, is the religion and the spirituality. This is something that has a great potential when you're working with women, in terms of shifting the beliefs about their own understanding of their experiences. Logic of language. That is such an important issue that, it cannot be emphasised. Because we know that there are no phrases, or there is not word-for-word interpretation in many languages for sexual assault, domestic violence, constantly completed for a - for my culture too.

If we don't have that language, if we don't have that word, do you think that there are concepts about that? Even if there are concepts, the concepts are very different and probably containing different structures, different ideas too, because language is actually expression of culture. It's not just out there and English is an expression of western culture, because wherever you go, if English is spoken there will be the familiarity with western culture. English is expression of western culture and there are many words, many phrases, that English do not have, but people have in different cultures and different languages. How do you ask about these things? These might be important things, how do we ask them about their experiences that we don't even have a concept in English?

Does that make sense? Yes. Some example of the words that we are missing in English, social status of many women, spiritual practices, rituals. These are all important things in women's life. They might be experiencing - their experiences of sexual abuse might be happening within that context, there might actually issues of how they manage within that context. How are we going to provide support, ask and explore these issues, if it's out of our mind, if we don't have a clue actually about this? Open-mindedness and actually allowing the space for women to provide us with their story in their own way is very, very important.

I was having a reflection on cognitive therapy and I was thinking, we really like talking in a therapeutic context and telling the story and it is very important. But the logic of language and how we then provide the information in order for women to shift into a different understanding of their experiences that is appropriate within the Australian context, it's so difficult and challenging when we don't have the same logic of language. It needs to be recognised. It is very challenging and it can be very frustrating. There are issues of misunderstandings that, yes, can have implication and consequences and sometimes it's it difficult to build that rapport or to have that trust within the therapeutic context to be distracted completely because of that issue of language and misunderstandings.

[Inaudible audience question]

Beata:

When we talk to woman about, even about whatever service, whatever information we provide, we emphasise all the time that this is within Australian context. This is how Australians do it, this is how we truly here in Australia would believe with, this is what we can do and women do not, even if we provide the information at the beginning, women don't understand. The same issues with the self-confidentiality and how do you originate their building rapport within the therapeutic context and you're supposed to talk about the confidentiality, their right and responsibilities. This is quite bullshit when you talk them. Having the first session, having an interpreter, having the woman and then you're going through their confidentiality, a woman would be looking at you and thinking, I'm actually wasting my time, what does she want from me?

Plus there is a lot of misunderstanding in relation to the secrecy, we've had that in the group context that women they were really suspicious, so you don't want us to talk about this to anyone, it's not a secret or something? So really you need to be mindful of that, but the expectations of women, very, very difficult. Women who do not have the counselling in their cultural background, but they had a professional - in my culture too - professional had, there was a doctor, psychologist, we receive sometimes messages saying, I just had an appointment with Dr Beata. I'm thinking, yes, this is their expectation and, of course, after a while there will be a new concept that the women will be just by herself on the fact that this is how we're interacting.

The expectation of do something, advise something, yes, what to do as well, but challenging, very challenging. I just wanted to also to make the point that many judgements are there from unintentional maybe from helping professionals who are favouring Australian context and thinking that this is - because we internalise this stuff, so we think this is how it, this is how life is, being over-educated at times and saying, this is domestic violence, this is abuse, this is it, this is child abuse. Yes, in Australian context, because very often when we say that and we are shocked with how it is in different cultures, we're making implicit judgements. We need to mindful of the fact that women have lived in their cultures and for years and they had a lot of satisfaction at times.

So they are at life achievement, their perception of being efficient, effective and their perception of self-efficacy and then we say, you know, your 20 years of life in your culture, or 30 years was actually all abuse and rubbish, what are doing? So we need to be mindful not to make Australia as a favourite, it just another country and it's not superb. That comes from the perception that thinking that women that they don't know when the violence is happening, yes, women do know when the violence is happening. They feel because there is something about violence that is universal, regarding different forms but how do we recognise violence? Because feel violated, we feel hurt, we know that stuff has happened to us, that's what makes it universal.

Women also have the feeling, but they might live in the cultural context that did not provide any options, so they never had in their world view that there is anything that they can do about that. They have it here, so we need to provide that context, but not assume that women are not able to recognise violence when it's happening to them. Right, I think we're overtime.

Female 4:

Okay, would you like to join with me in thanking Beata and Annabelle.

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